Crime Junkie - Hallgatás Online

00:01 Hi, crime junkies. It's Britt. If this show has taught us anything, it's that the truth is not always the version people tell you first. That's what makes Chameleon so good. Each week, host Josh Dean digs into real stories of people pretending to be someone they're not, from elaborate scams to cons that somehow keep going long after they should have fallen apart. It's true crime, but with a different kind of danger. Manipulation, deception, and lies that actually worked. Listen to Chameleon every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. 00:30 Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And welcome back. Last episode, I told you about the mysterious death of 30-year-old Alyssa Romine Olson. Her case has all the hallmarks that, to a crime junkie, scream foul play. She was found outdoors in Gilbert, Arizona, in a nature preserve, naked, face down in shallow water. Everything she came to the park with, her clothing, journal, cell phone, keys, it was all missing. And what police did find in the park were some footprints, shoe prints, and a latex glove. 01:07 But for some reason, this got spun to and through the media like a possible suicide. Now, they couldn't outright say it was a suicide because the ME ruled the manner and cause of death as undetermined. But the insinuation was there, backed by some softly worded statements from the police who told the press that there was no threat to the public. All of this was shocking to Alyssa's family because up to that point, they were very much under the impression that police were considering this foul play. 01:38 Police had even been asking them for a list of people that they thought police should look into. That is not the direction the investigation took. 01:46 Alyssa's sister Michelle told us it felt like investigators took one look at the lifestyle Alyssa and her husband Brayden Olson lived, heard about their beliefs, and instantly wrote them off as religious lunatics. And to be fair, Brayden did himself no favors each of the three times that he talked to police. 02:06 But from that point on, Michelle believes the investigation was driven by a simple assumption. Either Alyssa did this to herself or her husband, Brayden, did it to her. And if they found something that didn't fit neatly into that box, they seemed to discount it until the case eventually just ended up cold. 02:26 And if you're still hung up on her husband, Brayden, hearing about the other viable leads in this case might change your mind. or at the very least, present some pretty significant reasonable doubt. So this is the rest of Alyssa Romine Olson's story. 03:19 I want to break up this episode by theory. The media suggests Alyssa may have died by suicide because she was depressed or had health issues, but her family firmly disputes that. 03:30 Also, nothing about the scene is giving suicide. 03:33 No, I don't think she hid her clothes and her journal and keys and phone and walked into a nature preserve and died by some means that an ME couldn't even determine. Makes no sense. 03:45 Plus, the family says that police from the very jump were using terms with them at least like foul play, crime scene. But they seemed to focus heavily on Alyssa's husband, who it turned out had a rock-solid alibi. He was out of state. So when that didn't pan out, it seems like the investigation slowly tapered off. 04:06 Which is easy for that to happen when you don't have the media banging down your door asking, like, when you're going to solve this case when it's, like, just a suicide. 04:17 It makes the positioning in the public look very strategic, doesn't it? So let's walk through the other theories that I think are worth exploring. The first is actually one that, as far as I can tell, police never even looked into. 04:34 The Last Reformation Theory. 04:36 Now, this got our attention because of something Alyssa's sister Chelsea told police early on. It's in one of their reports. She asked them if Alyssa's death could have been caused by one of the members of her church, specifically someone offering to baptize Alyssa in the water. And that one line made me think back to something else that I read in the file. 04:59 So early on when police collected the computer that Alyssa used, she had a number of searches on June 6th. This is shortly before her death. Related to a religious movement called the Last Reformation or TLR. So last episode when we were talking about Brayden and his like, you know, not really having a motive. I mentioned that he and Alyssa were actually planning a trip together that would have been like a couple of weeks after she died. They had talked about it on their long phone call the night before Alyssa died. Well, that trip was to learn more about TLR. 05:31 And when police collected the tablet that Brayden had been using, they actually found three deleted PDF files seemingly related to TLR. Which, by the way, not only places a strong emphasis on baptism, but reportedly requires new members to be rebaptized and engage in, like, on-the-spot baptisms. And the more we ventured down this rabbit hole, the more interesting connections we found. For context, the Last Reformation is a global Christian revival movement that was launched in Denmark in 2011 by a man named Torben Sundergaard. 06:08 It teaches that modern Christianity has become too polished, too institutional, too dependent on buildings and pastors and routines. So instead, followers are encouraged to return to what they believe is the raw, supernatural faith of the early disciples in the New Testament. And that means that things can get a little intense and or hit a little too close to home for anyone who grew up like we did and like didn't get out or like did get out as we did. We're talking public healings, speaking in tongues, deliverance sessions, what many people would call exorcisms, and public baptisms in lakes or kiddie pools. 06:45 Now, followers are taught to cast out demons, heal the sick, and evangelize to strangers wherever, whenever, even if that happens to be a parking lot. 06:55 Now, the movement exploded online through YouTube videos showing dramatic healings and emotional conversion stories. But it also raised some major red flags. So the movement has been connected to claims of curing autism by casting out demons from children, as well as freeing people from cancer through prayer. And in 2016, six different Danish government agencies investigated the movement following worrying public claims about Torben's practices and activities. Now, those specific government inquiries found no actionable wrongdoings, but that didn't stop public outcry. 07:33 So how does Alyssa factor into all of this? Well, we know that Alyssa held religious beliefs that friends and family described as extreme or intense. But admittedly, the Romines didn't know much about Alyssa's faith toward the end of her life because it sort of became a topic of conflict. Alyssa would encourage her family to become more faithful and she would get animated if anyone tried to push back. Chelsea said that much like Brayden, Alyssa would compare those who tried to slow her religious progression to the devil and question why they were keeping her from learning about God. 08:07 Discussions were likely to end in an argument. So Chelsea knew very little about TLR, but she said that her family had their suspicions about it possibly being a cult. Now, when it comes to this theory, I think there are a few possibilities to tease out. The first one is what Chelsea suggested in her conversation with police, a sort of baptism gone wrong. Now, we did some digging here and found a podcast called The Cult Vault that explored the last Reformation movement in one of their episodes. 08:39 The host interviews a man who explored the movement himself after one of his family members joined. And some things that he said really stuck out to me. So the man described a TLR meeting that he went to where a member told him that they believe every person in their faith is a disciple. So every person in their faith can make water holy, can do baptism, can cast out demons. According to him, one of the first things that they have new members do is get baptized again. And interestingly, one of the group's practices was to go to Walmart and to try and convert people in the parking lot. 09:16 Like according to this man, they would bring a pickup truck with a raised bed in the back that they would fill with water and do baptisms in the parking lot. 09:24 Now, remember, we don't have any footage of Alyssa or her car parked in the parking lot of the public library where it was found because it was out of view. Could someone from the movement have approached her? And before you question like, oh, were there even like TLR members living in Arizona? I can tell you right now that the answer is yes. And I know that because on the movement's website, there is this interactive map where members can share their locations. And there are multiple plot points in Arizona. 09:53 Are you thinking that there might have been like a planned meetup or is this something more like happenstance? 09:59 I can't say anything for sure. But one thing noted in the police file is that Alyssa's text message log showed exchanges with an unidentified number the day and days before she went missing and died. 10:13 So this is someone other than Brayden? 10:16 Well, I mean, the number itself is redacted in the document. So I couldn't look it up, but I know that it's not Brayden's because officers know that when they tried to call this number, there was no answer nor an option to leave a voicemail. And we know that Brayden did receive a voicemail message on the device that he was borrowing from the Phillips. 10:32 Right. 10:32 Officers also text the number asking for a call back, but they never got any kind of response. And speaking of the Phillips, their daughter Samantha expressed some concerns to police about the last reformation movement, saying that it was like very weird and she could see them doing something like that, like just taking somebody. Now, as far as I can tell, though, there was no follow up done with this phone number that like she was in communication with, which, like, by the way, it would take all the 20 seconds for me right now to track someone to that number, like with what I have available to me. 11:04 I'm not even the police, but I can't because it's redacted. Right. Now, there is another possibility, which is that Alyssa was not the one being baptized, but maybe the one offering baptism. Like she could have been encouraged by a movement, the movement, whatever, to approach someone, to minister to them or to baptize them. Or in Chelsea's words, she might have, quote, bothered the wrong person about God. According to the police file, both Ed and Barbara, her parents, said that Alyssa was very friendly and she liked to talk to strangers, particularly to minister to them, which her dad Ed said was a scary habit. 11:42 And actually, one of the friends of Alyssa's that we spoke to told us that his top theory is that Alyssa was evangelizing to someone in the park who then pushed her into the water, causing her death. Now, who this person might have been, nobody could say. And that's like where that theory just like falls off. 11:59 OK, but is she naked when they push her in? Like otherwise that would make no sense. 12:04 It also makes no sense to me because like we there's no water in her lungs. She didn't drown. So I agree that that theory doesn't necessarily like or that piece of the theory doesn't make sense to me. Now, maybe if the police had alerted the public about the possibility of this being a homicide back in 2016, if they had tried harder to track down that unidentified number or done a neighborhood canvas, they might have gotten some leads. But that didn't happen. And now we can't go back in time. 12:34 So with that, on to our next theory, the man in the green forerunner. 12:40 It was Chelsea and her sister Tammy who first encountered this man on September 30th, 2016. 12:48 Chelsea told us that they were at the riparian dropping off flowers for Alyssa when a strange man just like emerged from the bushes near where they were standing. And they're just like they're sharing memories of Alyssa. But it seemed like this guy was like listening to them. And according to Chelsea, he was acting very weird and sort of like scoping the place out. So the two decided to just like keep an eye on this guy, except it sort of seemed like he was watching them back, which like creeped them out enough that they were like, we just need to get out of here. 13:19 Yeah. But that's not where the story ends. 13:22 So once Chelsea and Tammy got to their parents' house, they were outside in the front like discussing whether they should like tell their mom or maybe even tell the cops about this. But before they could do anything, something they saw on the road made their heart stop. It was this like forest green Toyota 4Runner like slow rolling down their street. And when it passed their house, the vehicle's window rolled down and Chelsea could see. 13:50 clear as day that the driver was the same man from the riparian, like as though he followed them the five miles home. And it's not like this is just like a straight shot on like some main street or something like this isn't a coincidence. The fastest route involves at least six turns to get to their parents' place. Now, Chelsea and Tammy did bring this information to police. Per the file, four days after the encounter, they went down to the station and relayed this whole story. 14:23 Police asked Chelsea to rate her certainty on a scale from 1 to 10 that both the man at the riparian and the man who drove by their house were the same person. At the time, Chelsea said 7. 14:34 But she told us that she was 100 percent sure of it. So sure, in fact, that her first thought at the time was actually that that guy must have been like an undercover detective or something who was like monitoring the area or them or whatever. 14:50 Did she ask police about that? 14:52 Oh, yeah. Definitely not the case here. They confirmed that they had nobody following them. 14:57 So the detectives ask her to describe this guy, right? And that's when she describes this Asian man in his mid-30s to mid-40s with thick, medium-length hair that she thought looked, like, quote, weird. Like it was maybe even a wig. And she says that he stood about 5'9", had a muscular build, but not, like, athletic. And he wore thin, small glasses, a white, plain T-shirt, and khaki pants. And so police take this down. but they don't really do anything with it. 15:29 It just kind of gets, like, filed away. But they didn't see what I saw. 15:35 So when I read that description, I genuinely thought I was having deja vu. Like, I swore I had seen those exact words in the file before. 15:45 And sure enough, I had. 15:52 In 2024, a man was killed by the FBI. And to this day, the authorities have refused to say why. He was a father, an ex-husband, and a Russian-born American citizen. 16:04 He just seemed like a lonely guy, and he needed a friend. And he kind of talked about death, didn't he? He talked about, you just never know when it's your time. 16:14 I'm CNN investigative reporter Isabel Chapman, host of the new limited series Civilian or Spy. 16:21 They noticed that he was communicating with people that were of concern to the FBI. 16:28 Oh my God, Jesus. 16:30 Head over to the CNN Presents feed and listen to our three-part series, Civilian or Spy, available wherever you get your podcasts. 16:43 There was an interview in the case file that happened about a month after Alyssa's death. 16:49 It was with this guy named James. And this is not like the people that Braden stayed with James. Totally different James. Yeah. No, no, no. They talked to him because they discovered him during one of the initial thermal imaging searches where they were like had the helicopter over the preserve. 17:06 Now, at least one other officer recognized this guy because James was unhoused and was a regular there. So much so that the park rangers refer to him as like the eyes and ears of the parks. So when they realize who he was, like they see him sleeping in the park, they just like escorted him out of the park. 17:23 And then they waited a month to interview him. 17:26 I know. I get the sense that police were like so familiar with him and his behavior that like... 17:34 He wasn't a concern. Okay, but he's the eyes and ears. 17:37 I know. But he, like, appears in the file more as a trusted eyewitness than a person of interest. Same thing, though, but, like, if you're the eyes and the ears, I would love to talk to you day one. Yeah. They talked to him a month later. Now, at one point, they did straight up ask him, like, did you have anything to do with her death? To which James says, no, absolutely not. And, like, that seems to be sufficient for them. 17:56 But he does bring up something interesting in this interview. Or rather, someone. 18:03 So James said that he learned someone had died in the park about a week after Alyssa's body was found. 18:09 And that's when he was talking to his friend, Sammy. And he was asking Sammy if he knew anything, like, why are all the helicopters and stuff, like, what's all that about, like, last week? And Sammy told him that a girl had drowned in the lake. 18:22 Now, according to James, Sammy was a transient who spent most of his time between the riparian and like this other local park that he would bike to. And he sometimes hung out at the library and the main lake in the riparian where he liked to fish. Now, when the officer asked James if he knew how Sammy had heard about the death, James said no. 18:42 Here comes the deja vu moment. 18:44 According to James, Sammy is of Thai descent, stands shorter than six feet tall, has medium length dark hair and speaks with an accent. 18:54 OK, so this is like matching that description. 18:58 But reading the file, I genuinely wonder if we are the only ones who have put this together. Because Chelsea told us that when she went to police with her tip in October, detectives were like, OK, you know, thanks. We're going to make note of this. Just write it down. That was it. They didn't seem concerned. They didn't seem suspicious of it. And I cannot find a single page of investigative follow-up into anyone matching Sammy's name or description. No composite sketch, no search, no flyers, no nothing, which I cannot explain. 19:31 As far as I can tell, to this day, Sammy, whoever he is, has never been found or interviewed. So, I mean, this is like a good call out. Like if anyone is familiar, like in this Gilbert area with someone named Sammy, S-A-M-M-Y, who matches that description, who lived around Gilbert, Arizona, email us, tips at audiochuck.com. And we will keep looking into this. 19:59 Now, while the first two theories could involve people we don't have names for, this next one I have a lot of info for. So buckle up. 20:12 So a full year after Alyssa's body was found, her sister Chelsea ends up getting a private Facebook message from a woman who wants to tell her about some suspicious activity that she observed at the riparian. 20:28 The woman says that there was this man hanging around the park who was like eyeballing her daughter in a way that made her like very uncomfortable. And not one to brush that kind of unwanted attention off, the woman decided to follow the man when he left the park. She followed as he walked down the road for over a mile to a Circle K and then shoved his backpack into one of the nearby black power boxes. When he did that, Something caught this woman's eye. She thought that she saw pieces of clothing in there. And for some reason, that's when it all just like connected for her. 21:04 She knew about the discovery of Alyssa's body the year before. And here was a suspicious man lurking in the same area, storing clothes and potentially more items in a power box. So she was reaching out to Chelsea to sort of say like, hey, I saw this. I don't know if this means anything, but maybe you should bring it to the attention of police, which Chelsea does. 21:26 On June 14th, 2017, she goes to the police station with her dad to explain the whole situation. 21:33 And that's when detectives tell her that they'd actually already heard of this guy, spoke to him even, twice by that point. 21:41 Once the day after Alyssa's body was found, and then another time just months before they were getting this report from Chelsea. 21:49 The guy's name was Luis Bueno. 21:53 And sure enough, there he is, right there in the case file early days. 21:59 From the reports we have, it looks like right after Alyssa's death, he approached police in the CVS parking lot. It's like across the street from the riparian. And he told them that he was homeless and he hung out by the preserve from time to time. 22:14 But it's what he said next that caught their attention. He said that two days before, so that would have been June 9th. 22:22 The day that Alyssa was reported missing. 22:24 And presumably the day that she died, but we don't know for sure. He says that he was in the parking lot of the LDS church that's across the street from the preserve, and he heard a gunshot. Now, Elise couldn't tell where the shot came from or remember exactly what time he heard it, but he said that it was, quote, right before all the cop cars arrived, which I'm assuming were the officers responding to Ed's missing person report for his daughter, Alyssa. 22:51 So that's, like, pretty late at night, right? 22:54 Well, I mean, that's the only time that I know of where the cop cars showed up to the preserve that day. But reminder, Alyssa didn't have any gunshot wounds. Right. And Michelle said that when they were out there looking, they definitely didn't hear any shots. So what is this? I don't know. Now, Luis said that he didn't know anyone who regularly visited the park, but he did have something else to share. He says, you know, one or two days before I heard the gunshot, I saw this black guy walking around the park, which he thought apparently was unusual because he had, quote, never seen a black male walk around the park before, end quote, which just an FYI, Michelle said this is not consistent with her experience of the park. 23:37 Regardless, they don't do much with this at the time. Like, no one else seemed to have heard a gunshot. The story just kind of felt like nonsense, probably. But Luis pops up again in the files about two weeks after that conversation. And by this point, it's June 25th. So the investigator writes that she would like to interview him again about Alyssa's death. That doesn't actually happen for another nine months, which, if you ask me, might have something to do with the fact that investigators were charging like full steam ahead with their investigation into Braden. 24:16 Right. 24:17 But finally, in March of 2017, detectives pick back up with Luis. This time he was interviewed on the patio of the library right by the riparian. Which investigators wrote is an area that he is known to frequent. And if you remember, this is also where Alyssa's, like her dad's car was parked. And the library borders the riparian. Right. So in this interview, the detective told Luis that he was investigating the death that happened in that area. And before he even said Alyssa's name, Luis responded, oh, you mean the lake here. 24:52 I'm the one that came to the officers to report something. Right. But reminder, Alyssa didn't have any gunshot wounds. And Michelle said that when they were out there looking like that night, they definitely didn't hear any shots. 25:06 Now, the first thing the detectives asked Luis was when exactly he heard the gunshot that he mentioned in his first conversation with officers. And Luis responded, just when that thing took place with that woman that drowned in the lake, but they said that was a suicide. 25:22 Okay, who's they? Okay. 25:24 I don't know. I would assume the media is who he's talking about. 25:27 OK, do we know if Luis even had access to like news reports? 25:31 He probably did. He told detectives he had this like five inch television and like that's how he heard about the death. OK. Now, at this point, the detective had already told Luis that he was not under arrest, didn't have to speak and was free to leave at any time. But one of the first things Luis asked was, you don't think I had anything to do with it. And the investigator didn't answer this. He just asked Luis to describe what he observed that was so suspicious. And here we get this same story again about this, like, black guy walking the paths within the preserve. Luis says that he couldn't remember which path, just that it was, like, deep within the preserve and that he saw him while he was riding his bike going down the path. 26:10 And this only made less sense when Luis told the detectives that he, quote, "...hardly goes to the preserve." 26:17 So it was just a coincidence that he happened to venture in there the one night that a woman might have died? 26:23 I guess so. And I think at this point, Louise might have realized the hole he was kind of like digging for himself because he says, I give you my word, sir. I had nothing to do with something like that. 26:36 Luis said that he just reported the suspicious activity because it was his duty as a Christian. And then Luis sort of changed his tone. According to the police file, he accused the detective of hassling him. And this is where the police file starts to read as a little bit combative. The detective told Luis that he believed he had more information than he had shared. And he asked Luis if he had ever spoken to Alyssa. 27:01 And Luis said, quote, You're going to take me in, huh, for something I didn't do. 27:07 So the detective asks again, have you ever spoken to Alyssa? 27:12 This time, Luis didn't even answer. And when the detective continued on to say that Alyssa was a very talkative person, Luis said, oh my gosh, you're going to turn me in because I'm a sex offender. 27:24 I'm sorry. 27:26 Come again? Like what? 27:29 This is true and it's not news to the detective talking to him. He did his homework. told Luis as much when Luis started telling him about how he spent 17 years in prison for attempting to assault two women at the same time. But Luis insisted that he wasn't actually guilty of that. Except again, the detective already read the police report. He knew Luis was downplaying the situation. And he brought up another case where Luis was arrested for attempted sexual assault. 27:59 And so Luis conceded that while he was claiming he was innocent of the first attempted assault, he was responsible for the second. 28:09 And then I guess feeling the need to explain himself, Louise launched into this personal history about how his mom like put him on something when he was like 16 or 17. And he had what he calls an explosion or an explosion went off in his head like fireworks. And he said when that happened, he immediately turned to crime. 28:29 What did his mom put him on? 28:31 All of the files are redacted. I don't know. But like based on the way Luis talks like later, he kind of insinuates that it was like an antidepressant. And he says that there are countless stories of antidepressants causing people to, quote, go off. 28:44 Was this his way of sort of like admitting some sort of responsibility? 28:50 No, I don't think so. Because Luis suggested that that was the old him, but he has control now and is, quote, normal again. 29:01 Now, this first official interview with Luis ended with him asking if the detective wanted him to take a polygraph test. 29:10 Yeah. 29:10 Yes, please. And the detective tries to set it up immediately. He called the polygrapher, made the arrangements, and drove Luis to the police department where, quote, he was provided with the opportunity to take the polygraph test. 29:23 Love that phrasing. 29:24 Yeah, but I don't think he did. 29:26 Oh, okay. 29:27 I don't know why exactly or what happened because it's redacted in the file, but there is no mention of any polygraph results. Or maybe it's the results that are redacted. Who knows? I just know that Luis was subsequently released. And so then fast forward three months later. And that's when Chelsea comes forward with her tip. And when she does, it's not just some random like guy. She's like, I saw this guy and they're connecting the dots. She has Louise's name because the woman who told her about this whole thing literally like looked up the sex offender registry list and like ID'd Louise. 30:02 She's out here like doing the most, but like in the best way possible. Total crime junkie. Yeah. And she did even more because not only did she share this tip with Chelsea, like, hey, you might want to share this with police. You might want to check this out. 30:13 She actually did go straight to police herself with this information three months before, in March. 30:21 Is that what spurred them to talk to him, like, the second time? 30:24 No, because jurisdiction made it so that this tipster's call got routed to Mesa PD. So when Chelsea is going to them, they're like, okay, yeah, we know this guy. We want to talk to him again. But by then, they can't find Luis. Okay. 30:42 Okay, everything you've told me about him, he like frequents like three places in a one mile radius. I know. What do you mean you can't find him? 30:52 I don't know. 30:54 I can see a note in the file that says they sent out like over a thousand flyers with his information. Like they're doing something to look for him. But the thing is, like, I don't know where they're sending all those flyers. Yeah. Because like it couldn't have been or doesn't seem like it was the library. 31:09 Where he is all the time. 31:11 And that's where they find him in November of 2018. 31:16 And when the detective approaches the library manager, like when they have him this time and they're like, hey, do you have a room or something that we can use to like interview this guy? The library manager says, quote, he comes to the library almost daily. 31:29 So like there he was. 31:30 So then where were they looking for him? 31:33 It feels like maybe they weren't. Because when they sit down with him, he says that he'd offered to take a polygraph in the past, but then he was never contacted again. So, I mean, there's that answer. The detective says that's why he's there now. OK, like let's we're going to have a second official interview. Yeah. In it, Luis relays the same story about this black guy that he sees in the preserve. But then the investigator quickly turns the tables. He tells Luis that there are people that believe he was involved in Alyssa's death. 32:05 And Luis is like, how? Nobody searched my backpack. Sir, no one, not the answer that you like are expecting here. Nope. And he's kind of right. Gilbert PD never searched his backpack. 32:19 We didn't know we had to. 32:21 But Mesa PD had searched a backpack of his when that call got routed to them in 2017. And you are not going to believe what they found inside of it. 32:39 In 2024, a man was killed by the FBI. And to this day, the authorities have refused to say why. He was a father, an ex-husband, and a Russian-born American citizen. 32:51 He just seemed like a lonely guy, and he needed a friend. And he kind of talked about death, didn't he? He talked about, you just never know when it's your time. 33:02 I'm CNN investigative reporter Isabel Chapman, host of the new limited series Civilian or Spy. 33:08 They noticed that he was communicating with people that were of concern to the FBI. 33:15 Oh my God, Jesus. 33:17 Head over to the CNN Presents feed and listen to our three-part series, Civilian or Spy, available wherever you get your podcasts. 33:30 Mesa PD's search of the backpack happened in 2017. 33:35 Now, it doesn't seem like the dots are connected right away. But by the time Gilbert PD is interviewing Luis in 2018, they have at least Mesa PD's intake report, which talks about what they found in the backpack. So the detective who's talking to Luis now begins to go through the list with Luis one by one, asking him about each item. 34:01 First up, pair of gloves. And Luis is like, I'm homeless. But the detective is like, yeah, no, I'm looking at latex surgical gloves. And that's when Elise is like, oh, I worked at PETA Jungle. And so, like, I would take the gloves home. 34:16 But surgical gloves. 34:17 That's what he says. 34:19 And correct me if I'm wrong, there were latex gloves found at Alyssa's crime scene. 34:23 There sure were. Mesa also found a woman's hair tie in his bag. And when asked, Luis says, like, well, I must have just had long hair at the time. Is that true? There's no description of Luis in the file nor photos of him in 2017 when the bag was recovered. But our reporter did get a hold of the woman who, like, followed him, found the backpack in 2017. And she said back then he did have longer hair. Like, it fell just below his chin. But she said that she never saw him, like, wear it pulled back into a ponytail. 34:56 So, okay, whatever. Next, the detective brings up some religious writings that Mesa found in the back. 35:03 Like, religious writings that could be connected to the woman we know would go to the right period every day to pray with her Bible. 35:12 But not according to Louise's. He says that those writings were his. He's a Christian. He writes like that all the time. In fact, he says he has so many writings about angels and demons that if they want, he can show them. So the detective is like, OK, great. Would love to see where. 35:30 And then Louise says, oh, actually, like, I only carry essential items with me. So, like, I can't show you. 35:36 Essential items like surgical gloves and a hair tie for the long hair you don't currently have. 35:42 Right. Now, I don't know the exact contents of these writings. I know Mesa PD impounded everything that they collected, that bag and everything in it. So we filed a FOIA for the intake form, any photos, like anything. But Mesa PD told us that no photos were taken from the incident. And there was like not even body cam footage. All they gave us was the incident report and the catalog. 36:08 Okay, but to me, even more than what the religious notes say, I feel like the handwriting itself would tell you everything you need to know. 36:16 I know, but like I said, no photos. And Gilbert PD doesn't get to expand on Mesa PD's report because... 36:23 Because Gilbert PD never got to actually see the items either. 36:28 Because per note in the file, the items got destroyed by Mesa PD in May of 2017. Quote, in accordance with their policy. So like not that long after they. You're kidding me. No, not that long after they collected them. 36:42 Did anyone test this stuff in relation to Alyssa's case? No. It's like there was no time to. No. 36:46 No, and I think that, like, Mesa PD is the one that responded. 36:50 They never connected the dots. 36:52 No, all they knew was that they were holding onto items that, like, a local resident said, like, it seems suspicious someone put it in there and they were, like, unclaimed items. They did not know that those items could be connected to a crime that Gilbert PD was in charge of. Bottom line is, if there was anything in that bag that could definitively tie Luis to Alyssa's death, we will never know. Because by the time Gilbert PD pieced it all together and inquired about the bag, it was too late. 37:24 Everything was gone. But let's go back to the Luis interview. 37:28 No, Gilbert PD didn't search the backpack. But they know Mesa PD did, and there was enough there written in their report to make them suspicious. 37:39 Now, at this point in the interview, Luis again brings up his sex offender status, but restates that he was innocent of his assault charges. And he elaborates more this time and tells the detectives that he committed a burglary where two women fell out of a window— But then they went to court and claimed that he sexually assaulted them. And the only reason he pled guilty was because he went to court chained to a lot of men who wanted to do bad things to him. So he was forced to. 38:08 Do we know anything about this case? 38:11 Well, I wouldn't just from Gilbert's report. There is nothing there. But obviously, I am here trying to solve a mysterious death, not to just like tell you a story. So we FOIA'd the Maricopa County Superior Court. And according to those files, the first incident involving Luis took place in June 1990. He would have been just around like 20 at the time. And the file says that he ambushed two sisters while they were asleep at home and that he was already naked when he jumped on them in their shared bed and attempted to assault them. 38:44 And this is what Luis is talking about when he said two women fell out a window. Yeah. 38:50 I'm not 100 percent sure because we weren't given the full incident report, only the court filing. So like it's possible, but there's like no mention of a window or anything that I can see. Now, the second incident took place in February of 1991, and we actually do have the full incident report for it. 39:06 It says that Luis forced his way into a physical therapy office naked, found a woman as she was leaving work and forced her to the floor where he tore her clothes off and attempted to sexually assault her. Luis hit her in the face several times, threatened to kill her if she didn't shut up. But right then, the burglar alarm sounded and the office phone rang, so Luis ran off. And how did they know it was Luis, you might ask? Well, according to the file, he defecated at the scene. 39:38 But I don't even know if they like had to test that because he also left his photo ID there as well. Now, what's interesting about all of this is the prosecution moved to try both crimes at the same time, citing that, quote, "...the offenses charged therein are of the same or similar character, are part of a common scheme or plan, and the evidence in each case is admissible in the other for purposes of proving intent, plan, knowledge, and identity." In their motion, the prosecution noted that in both cases, while already naked, Luis ambushed unsuspecting victims that he didn't know prior and attempted to sexually assault them. 40:21 Luis said that he got the urge to rape victims shortly after seeing them and then just acted spontaneously. He got convicted on all three counts of attempted sexual assault, and he went to prison for 17 years. 40:35 So now let's circle back to Alyssa's case, because there are a lot of dots here that kind of connect themselves. Yeah. For one, we know Alyssa was found naked and some of the clothing that was found nearby the crime scene was torn. According to reports, Alyssa's DNA wasn't found on any of that clothing. But I can't help but think back to the original woman who messaged Chelsea on Facebook. She mentioned seeing Luis put clothing in the backpack in the power box. Obviously, all of it would have been destroyed by Mesa PD if it was even still there by the time they collected it. 41:10 Now, we know Luis was at the library every day, according to the librarian. Almost every day. Alyssa gets there very early in the morning before the library is open, before anyone is around. Does Luis see her and get a spontaneous urge like he admitted to having in his previous crimes? 41:30 Someone took Alyssa's clothes and her journal with her religious writings. Luis has those kind of writings in his backpack. He has a woman's hair tie. He has latex gloves and latex gloves were found at the scene. 41:44 So knowing that, let's circle back to that November 2018 interview at the library. 41:51 Once again, Luis and the detective start discussing a polygraph test. 41:56 Luis asked the detective what good a poly would do if it wouldn't 100% clear him. And the detective says that it would at least help eliminate him, right? So then for the second time, a polygraph is scheduled, like not right then, but it's scheduled for the end of the month, November 29th, 2018. 42:14 But before it can happen, Luis calls to reschedule for December 4th because he will no longer be available at that time in November. 42:23 I'm like dying to know what he's so busy doing. I have no idea. 42:26 So December 4th comes. Luis and the officer, they do meet. But it seems like the meeting is just for the officer to relay to Luis that the polygrapher won't be available now until December 27th. 42:39 So Luis agrees to meet the detective then. But on that date, the detective shows up to the library, waits for an hour and 15 minutes, and Luis never shows. He never texts. He never calls. And from the files I have, that seems like the end with Luis. There is nothing to show that he has ever been interviewed again since 2018. So as far as I can tell, he was never even given that polygraph examination that he He apparently agreed to, said he would do. 43:09 Okay, it sounds like he had a phone that, like, call him, reschedule. 43:15 Like, apparently all you have to do to get off Gilbert Petey's radar is, like... Ghost them. Not call them. Which is, like... great i mean is that they like somehow can't find him again i don't know for sure but if i had to hazard a guess i would say that this guy is probably just like in the same one block radius that he's been since the start like if they really wanted to pin this guy down i just don't think it would be that hard yeah it seems like they aren't even trying It doesn't even seem like they're interested in talking to him again because it's not that they can't find him. 43:50 You know, I actually know that because we requested a list from the Gilbert PD of all the police records involving Luis Bueno. And he's most definitely been in contact with police officers since 2018. Like records show that he has been named in reports for traffic violations, urinating and defecating in public, trespassing and more. We tried to reach him for comment, but we never heard back from any of the numbers that we tried, including those in his court records. All of those have been disconnected. So I think next step would be a visit to the library, right? 44:23 Yeah. The way I see it, there are a lot of things that don't look great for Luis in this. But there isn't any hard evidence they have. But I also like I don't feel like it doesn't feel like they're looking for it doesn't feel like they're really trying to get to the bottom of this. It feels like the case has stalled and nothing is happening. So we reached out to the Gilbert PD to see what is happening with this case. And in the 11th hour, of course, always, they gave us this statement that I'll have you read. 45:01 The initial death investigation involving Alyssa Romine has been thoroughly investigated by Gilbert Detectives. While the Maricopa County medical examiner determined the cause of death is undetermined, investigators have exhausted all viable leads and available evidence at this time. This case has not been forgotten. This case has remained under periodic review since its initial closure and is currently assigned to a detective for additional review and may be reactivated if new information becomes available. Gilbert PD also continues to monitor advancements in forensic technology that may assist in case evaluation. 45:35 There you have it. If they're still monitoring forensic advancements, that should mean they have things to test, right? 45:42 Maybe. I mean, we know all the stuff from Mesa's gone. But the one thing that I keep coming back to are the latex gloves they found. Like they found a full one and they found a piece of one. 45:55 I can see that they were both tested back in 2016. The results, though, are pretty redacted. All I can read is that the full latex glove had male DNA present. They also seemingly found male DNA on there was this like black phone case that they found, too. But conclusions and like other like testing results, whatever, are redacted as well. 46:17 I feel like you would have told me this, but, like, do we know who that DNA belongs to? 46:22 We do not. I can't even tell if anyone that we've mentioned in these episodes has been tested against it. Or did they get a good enough profile to put into CODIS? I mean, as we know, there is a lot that is redacted in the file. But the reports start really trailing off after 2019. Yeah. 46:41 Okay, what were they looking for? 47:01 It said that they were just doing, like, a broader talk screen. 47:04 Okay, but didn't they already do a talk screen? 47:06 They did a talk screen. My only assumption is that, like, maybe they wanted to check for, like, different—right, like, it expanded. I think it's all there. But I don't know if there was something specific they were looking for. I don't know if they found anything, what they found, because there are no results mentioned in the file. I don't know if this is part of, like, them being like, is there a reason— You know, what the family keeps telling us is, like, it feels like they're looking for, like, she did this, right? Like, even though they're calling it foul play, like, they've always had this, like, impression. 47:35 Yeah. This kind of fits into that. It's just like this undercurrent in the whole case. 47:39 Now, I know in 2021, there was this, like, moment where they interviewed a wildlife photographer who frequented the riparian, but she turned out to have no relevant information. Yeah. And then in 2022, the case was documented as being under a formal FBI cold case review. But the only reason we know that is from a singular status line in the file with no additional context, no follow up. Alyssa's family wasn't even aware of the FBI review until our reporter told them. But what's even stranger is that when asked, the Gilbert PD representative told us that regardless of what the file says, the case actually hasn't been sent to the FBI? 48:19 Question mark? 48:21 So the line in the file is a lie? 48:24 The rep said that his guess is that there is maybe just like a discussion between the detectives at the time. 48:31 But like whatever they were discussing about sending it, it just never came to fruition. 48:35 But it literally says like in the file, quote, currently under FBI cold case review, end quote. Right. 48:42 Not like we're thinking about sending this to the FBI. 48:45 Someday maybe having a, I don't know. I really don't know. 48:48 Which makes me like distrust everything else in the file. Right. 48:52 Well, while we're on the topic of trust, do you remember from our past Gilbert, Arizona episodes? So the Arizona Attorney General's office was looking into allegations about Gilbert PD destroying police records, right? Well, just a few days before this recording, I haven't told you this yet, they put out a statement saying that their review found that the files in question were deleted as a result of, what do you know, an administrative error. You know, it's always that. 49:23 There's so many errors. And thus, there is no evidence supporting the likelihood of a successful prosecution. So no criminal charges will be filed. 49:34 Of course. Of course. 49:35 We have heard from the people in Gilbert loud and clear. The status quo ain't working. Something's got to give. The people of Gilbert want more from their public opinion. Also, like if there is like no repercussions for like any errors, I've said this before, like every other like job and profession, I feel like when you have people's lives in your hand, like there's a standard. 50:01 Even if you don't, like there are still like expectations and things that you're responsible for to do well. You can do whatever you want. 50:08 You can just apparently you can do whatever you want. And like as long as you like check a box and say you're trying and like oopsie, it doesn't matter. Yeah. According to Alyssa's sister, Chelsea, the last time investigators spoke to her mom was in 2019. And from what I can see in the police report, it seems like that conversation was to inform her that Alyssa's case would be reassigned to a new detective. Though they apparently weren't informed that in 2020, the case got reassigned again. 50:37 After this long, the family deserves more answers than what they're getting. 50:43 What does the full autopsy report say? What has or has not been tested? And after they learn everything that has been done, the question then is, what else can be? Police should continue to push on Luis. I think it would be worthwhile for them to find this Sammy guy. And it's worth looking into any members of the Last Reformation movement that Alyssa might have had contact with. It's worth finding out who that number was that she was in communication with. 51:15 And these are only the leads that I was able to identify or connect with. From the file. 51:20 The heavily redacted file. 51:22 There are other possibilities out there. Ones that the family even suggested to police early on. Like one of Alyssa's ex-boyfriends who, according to Michelle, never got over Alyssa. Michelle said they split years before her death and he knew that she had moved on. But he was still, quote, obsessed with her. He was still reaching out to her and trying to get her back or trying to get back in her life, I should say. And not only that, but Michelle says that he was abusive to Alyssa while they were together. 51:54 When we asked Chelsea about him, she said that she has a vivid memory of being like 12 or 13 and overhearing a phone call Alyssa made to her parents' house where she was screaming that she needed her dad's help because this man had severely beaten her. Michelle told us his name. But that name never comes up in the police file, even though Michelle said that she and her mom specifically told investigators they should interview this guy. It also happens that shortly after Alyssa's death, according to Chelsea, this same ex-boyfriend started seeing one of Alyssa's little sisters. 52:31 What? 52:33 And interestingly, that sister said that at his home, this guy had something stuck to his fridge that said Brayden killed Alyssa. 52:44 Why? 52:44 He told Alyssa's little sister it was because he knew Brayden did it. Now, we reached out to Brayden for comment, but as of this recording, we have not heard back. 52:53 According to Chelsea, this ex-boyfriend passed away just last year. But as far as anyone knows, he was never questioned about Alyssa's death. And this is just one more thing contributing to the Romine's family's lack of trust in the investigation. Their biggest frustration from the jump was the lack of communication from Gilbert PD. Chelsea told us the onus fell on her family to reach out for information. And eventually her mom just stopped calling because she didn't have the energy to be told again and again and again that there was just nothing new to report. 53:29 Which, like, listen, I get not sharing details with the public that, like, you know, could jeopardize the investigation. But, I mean, I think the family has the right to know. 53:39 I know. But like what's wild to me is that like it's not even like they like weren't telling them like just some things. Like pretty much everything that I've told you today, Chelsea said that her family had to piece together on their own. Like they were sharing nothing. 53:54 In 2018, Gilbert Police Sergeant Mark Marino was at least willing to hint at the possibility of foul play publicly, basically saying that they don't want to release anything because they don't want to jeopardize the case. But also there is no threat to the public. But also there might be. They don't know. They're still working on it. 54:16 Even in 2019, when Gilbert Petey got a new legal advisor and finally decided to release a highly redacted version of Alyssa's investigative file for the first time, the sergeant was just as wishy-washy. He said Alyssa's was the most unique case he'd seen. And even though it was undetermined, they were working it as a homicide, but also, quote, End quote. End quote. 54:57 Okay, tell me how on earth this was an accidental death. 55:02 He just says, at this point, we don't have a predominant theory. There was a little bit more to the statement that they gave us, and I'll have you read what else they said. 55:14 We recognize the profound loss Alyssa's family and loved ones endure, and our thoughts remain with them. We remain available to the family should they have questions or wish to discuss the case further. 55:26 The thing is, Chelsea says that many of her family members have all but given up hope that they'll get answers in Alyssa's death. 55:34 In 2023, Alyssa's dad, Ed, told the Gilbert Sun News, quote, they never told us if they have a suspect. It's all a big mystery. No more information made us think not much effort is going into it, end quote. 55:49 Chelsea said she is still desperate for closure, and she believes her family has grieved in silence for too long. 55:58 So for her sake and the entire Romine family, it's time to blow this case wide open. Time to change the narrative about the death of Alyssa Romine Olson and finally get answers about what happened to her in that park in 2016. 56:15 So if you know anything about the death of Alyssa Romine Olson at the Riparian Preserve in Gilbert, Arizona, you can contact the Gilbert Police Department by submitting a tip at gilbertaz.gov slash submit a tip. And make sure it's in reference to case number 16-9745. And as always, you can reach out to us by emailing tips at audiochuck.com. 56:44 Crime Junkie is an Audio Chuck production. 56:48 I think Chuck would approve. 56:55 It starts with something small. A light in the sky moving in a way it shouldn't. A sound no one can place. A story someone swears is true, even if no one else believes them. And the more you hear, the harder it gets to explain away. On So Supernatural, we dig into the mysteries that live somewhere between fact, folklore, and the unknown. We follow the stories that make you wonder what else is out there. Listen to So Supernatural wherever you get your podcasts.