00:00
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
00:08
Have you noticed that nowadays people just throw words around like, oh, this person's toxic, that person's a narcissist, this person's a psychopath, as if it's nothing.
00:19
But these words do mean something very specific.
00:23
And our expert today is going to take you and me into the world of dark personalities. Because what she calls poisonous people aren't just the subjects of true crime investigation or sitting in jails. They're in boardrooms. They're in public office. You might encounter them in your living room or at work. Dr. Leanne Tenbrink is here in our Boston studios. She runs the Truth and Trust Lab at the University of British Columbia, where she is a professor of forensic psychology.
00:57
She's spent two decades studying manipulators, chronic liars, and dark personalities. Because there will always be people who don't want peace. They want control, chaos. They want you confused. And you know what? They don't care when you're upset.
01:14
This episode is not about labeling people as toxic. It's about something very specific and important.
01:23
How to spot dark personality traits in other people. And when you do see these toxic traits...
01:32
exactly what you should do, and more importantly, what you should not do when you encounter someone like this. And if in listening to this, you recognize that you or someone you love is in a relationship with someone with a dark personality, she has specific recommendations for how to extract yourself or how to support someone you love who needs to. What you're going to learn today will help you protect yourself because as you know, you can't change and control other people, but you can recognize who you're dealing with and become strategic in how you approach them.
02:05
And that is the first step to reducing the stress and pain they can cause in your life.
02:21
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am thrilled that you're here. I'm so excited about this topic. It's such an honor to be together and to spend this time with you. And if you're new here or somebody sent this episode with you, I just want to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. Dr. Leanne Brink is here to teach you and me how to spot a truly toxic person and what to look for and what to do. Dr. Ten Brink is a best-selling author who earned her PhD in psychology from the University of British Columbia, where she is also a professor and the director of the Truth and Trust Lab.
02:56
She studies the patterns behind manipulation, gaslighting, chronic lying, and why a small number of people can cause so much damage in relationships, workplaces, and in positions of power. So what can forensic psychology teach us about the dark personalities that you encounter in your day-to-day life? That is exactly what she's here to teach you today. Please help me welcome Dr. Leanne Tenbrink to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
03:27
I am so excited that you flew in all the way from British Columbia because I am fascinated by your field of expertise and your research, and our team devoured your bestselling book, Poisonous People. And what I'd love to have you do is if the person listening applies everything that you're about to teach us from your studies of deception and dark personalities and they apply it starting today, what will change?
03:58
I think they learn how to reduce one of the biggest stressors in all of our lives because dark personalities, and I'm not talking about like the super extreme clinical levels here necessarily, people who are just like consistently callous and manipulative in our lives. And so you can probably, you know, everyone has someone in their lives that kind of might be popping into their head right now, right? The manipulative sister-in-law, the boss at work who just needs all the attention and takes all the credit for your work, the callous mother-in-law.
04:34
I get a lot of callous mother-in-laws in the comments. And these are people who cause us incredible amounts of stress. They divide us.
04:45
They make us think that everyone is terrible when that's not the case.
04:51
And they erode norms of polite conduct. They enshrine competition where cooperation would be so much better for everybody. This one bad apple can really ruin the barrel. And I think today I'm hoping to give people some tools to stop that rot.
05:09
Oh, my gosh.
05:11
You know what was amazing about as you were talking is it probably happened for you as you were listening to Dr. Tenbrink. But I started to have situations and people pop into my mind. And one of the things that I wondered almost immediately, because as you talked about, these are the huge source of stress. You talked about callous, manipulative. They divide us.
05:38
They make you think other people are terrible.
05:40
Yeah.
05:41
They stir up controversy and competition.
05:46
Is it always someone who's doing it overtly or would this apply to somebody who's maybe a little bit more victim-y and softer in their approach? Because I want to start the conversation by you having people in your mind that cause you stress so that you can think specifically about how to apply this.
06:06
So we define dark personalities as the overlap between kind of specific dark personalities, which I'm sure we'll get into, is this kind of nexus of like callous, manipulative, and hostile.
06:20
And they certainly know what they're doing. So one of the questions I often get is, do these people realize that they are this way? Right? And the answer is yes. Yes. Because we often measure these personality traits with like a self-report. We ask them, is this characteristic of you? And they will say, yeah, that sounds like me. I don't have any remorse. I am a born leader. I am okay manipulating other people to get my way and I don't feel bad about it. And so it's not like they don't realize that they are this way, but they don't necessarily care or they're not like concerned about that impact on other people, right?
07:00
That's that callous piece. So that combination of manipulativeness and callousness, I'm going to take advantage of you. I'm going to tell lies. And then I don't really worry about the consequences or how that makes you feel.
07:13
Got it. I'm so happy that you just defined callus because that was going to be my next question. So manipulative is my behavior does impact you and callus means I don't really care that it does. Yeah. So what does a poisonous person look like in day-to-day life?
07:29
So a poisonous person has elevated levels of callousness, manipulativeness, and hostility toward other people. That's kind of the core of dark personality traits.
07:41
Okay.
07:42
If you're trying to think of in your life, what does that person look like? Yes. They might be the boss who is like consistently self-focused and takes advantage of all the people that work underneath them, takes credit for their work. manipulates them perhaps into doing work that is not part of their job description, and then is like, oh, this is all about me, right? It could be the manipulative mom at the PTA, right? Like she's kind of pulling the strings, she's spreading rumors, and all so that she can kind of maintain this position of power, right?
08:16
There's other versions, right? So you might have your friend's new boyfriend, right, might seem really, kind of sickeningly sweet around her, but is actually really cruel to everyone else around him.
08:32
And it seems like he might be, like, love-bombing her, right? Like, creating this beautiful sense of a future for them. But you see the pattern everywhere else, which is that he is callous. He doesn't care about other people. He treats them poorly. He dominates people. And so I think we see these personalities— in all different versions or all different aspects of our life, because a personality is a consistent way of thinking, feeling, and behaving.
09:03
And by virtue of it being consistent, that means you take your personality with you wherever you go, right? So sometimes you're at the grocery store, sometimes you're at work, sometimes you're with your family. And so we see these types of personalities, you know, in all different aspects of our life.
09:18
I want to hover right there and make sure that I got that. So a personality is a consistent way of being, thinking, behaving, and feeling.
09:29
And when we look at this in the context of, you know, poisonous people that are hostile, callous, manipulative, so you're kind of seeing this almost consistent trend of somebody who's hostile towards other people, callous, I don't care, manipulative, I'm going to do what I need to do to get what I need. Before we go... even deeper.
09:48
I cannot wait to dig into this.
09:50
Could you just list quickly for the person who's listening right now, what are the four kinds of dark personalities that we're going to dig into in detail?
10:02
So personality psychologists talk about four different but overlapping traits as the dark tetrad of personality traits.
10:10
So we've got... Does tetrad mean four? It sure does. Okay.
10:13
Yeah. I'm learning a lot today. You know, we probably could have— You're using some big words, Dr. Tenbury. We probably could have come up with, like, a flashier name for that or something.
10:20
Well, I would have thought it would have been a quad if it was four. So Tetrad threw me off. That might sound better.
10:25
But anyway, that's what we've gone with. We've got psychopathy. Psychopathy. Okay. Narcissism.
10:33
Mm-hmm.
10:33
Machiavellianism and sadism.
10:37
So these are the four dark personality types. But as you've already said, as we're digging into each one so we can spot trends, there may be some overlap.
10:49
Yes, absolutely. So like that question that I sometimes get, is this person a narcissist or a psychopath? That also suggests that they're like completely separate things, right? And when we get into the definitions, you'll notice that there's a reasonable amount of overlap. So these traits tend to be moderately correlated. So if you're high in one, chances are you're also higher in others. Yeah. And so it's not like an either or kind of thing. It's often like a yes and.
11:21
Got you. After this episode, when you start to apply what we're learning, is it more useful not to label somebody a narcissist, but to go, that's a narcissistic personality style right there, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, or they have the makings of a sociopath? Like, how do I talk to my best friend about this?
11:39
Yeah, I think it's certainly more accurate to say like this individual seems like they have high levels of psychopathic personality traits or narcissistic personality traits. I know it's a bit of a mouthful, but it recognizes the fact that, you know, this is a continuum and not, you know, kind of a black and white situation.
11:59
Well, what I also like about that, even though it's a mouthful, is that think for so much of my life anyway, and I'm sure as you're listening, you're going to feel the same way that I have given so much time and energy and experienced so much heartache at the hands of people that are hostile, callous, and manipulative. And if I can take a step back And be able to be more of a ninja with this where I can go, oh, there's a narcissistic personality style.
12:33
I think I could recognize it sooner versus thinking you have to label somebody something versus spotting behavior and recognizing, oh, I got to step back from that. I got to recognize that and step back versus just saying, oh, that person is that kind of person, if that makes sense.
12:51
Yeah, totally. I think sometimes we get caught up in like trying to figure out what is the label.
12:56
Yes.
12:56
Is she this or is she that?
12:58
Yes.
12:58
And that can kind of distract us from like, you know, it doesn't have to be either or. It's just, oh, I see there's callousness coming across in a lot of her behavior. And so now, okay, I'm cued into the callousness and I can try to interact with her in a different way that is going to reduce some of the impact of those personality traits.
13:16
I find that to be really helpful.
13:19
Mm-hmm.
13:19
Because I feel more equipped than to spot it across a continuum versus waiting for behavior to build up to the point where I label somebody. Let's start with sociopath because you hear that word thrown around a lot. What actually is a sociopath, Dr. Tenbrink, and how do you spot one?
13:38
So people with high levels of psychopathy, I've got a visual here. You do? Okay, good. Yeah, okay. Check this out.
13:43
And I want to tell the person who's listening what it is so you don't feel like you're left out. It is a illustration of a person who is wearing a mask. And behind the mask, you can see that they're either angry, callous, and manipulative. But the mask that they're wearing has a big, smiley, kind of friendly face. Mm-hmm.
14:02
So psychopathy is actually a constellation of traits. It's not just one thing, but it's a set of traits that when you kind of put them together creates psychopathy. I think this illustration is a good kind of depiction of the mask of sanity. So one of the early researchers who studied psychopathy psychopathy use this phrase to describe people with high levels of psychopathy and it's because they they're incredibly manipulative and they often come across as very superficially charming and so like what you see is not necessarily what you get right and so you can see this kind of friendly looking demeanor on the outside masking that hostility and anger underneath But when I talk about psychopathy being a constellation of traits, that means that it's more than just one thing.
14:54
It all comes together to form psychopathy. One way to chop up those behaviors or those constituent parts of psychopathy has a relatively long history with Dr. Bob Hare.
15:05
And he broadly mapped those pieces on to being callous. manipulative, impulsive, and antisocial. And so we can go through each of those. Yes, let's.
15:15
Because I'm like, oh.
15:17
Okay, well, so we hear callous, manipulative, but you also said antisocial.
15:23
And what was the other one? Impulsive. Impulsive. What's the impulsivity about?
15:28
The impulsivity is that they tend to respond to risk differently than other people. So they don't do a lot of thinking before they're acting. They tend to be pretty reckless and irresponsible. Right. This might lead to them kind of having a what we call parasitic lifestyle, like they're mooching off of other people because they're not putting in the like consistent work and planning of planning out a career, a family, all these things that go into life. Right. So that's the impulsivity bit. And then antisocial is a proneness to breaking the rules.
16:00
Antisocial. And this, we've often studied psychopathy in the context of criminal justice settings. And so this could be legal rules, right, that they're breaking. But it doesn't have to be that. It can be kind of social norms of kindness or politeness or fairness. It can also be like workplace conduct, right? We've got certain rules in the workplace and they are... kind of blatantly disregarding those kinds of things. So putting all those things together, callous, manipulative, antisocial, impulsive, that's what is the kind of combination that makes up psychopathy.
16:33
So when I hear the word psychopath, I think about some sort of horror movie. Yes. And some person running around killing people.
16:44
Dr. Tenbrink, can you give us an example of two?
16:48
Since this personality trait runs on a continuum, what does a subtle version of a psychopath look like, you know, on one continuum? And what might it look like on the other in terms of what you would encounter in your life?
17:06
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, I mean, very low would be someone who is like kind and honest and follows the rules. Right. And so that is actually most people. Gotcha. Very high, but perhaps not that kind of serial killer stereotype. Yeah.
17:28
is very superficially charming. So like they're kind of fun to talk to in the moment. But if you think about the conversation you had later, you're like, none of that really makes sense. There's not a lot of substance to what they said. If you examine it in some depth, they don't care. They're like very remorseless, right? Not experiencing a whole lot of guilt. breaking a whole lot of rules, and they're not really thinking too far ahead, right? So you can imagine this kind of personality almost anywhere. You can think about them in the workplace, maybe.
18:01
You might have a coworker who is very charismatic, and everyone loves them at the start, and they're always breaking the rules at work. But people see them and they're like, that's a go-getter. They're great. They are so smart. But you behind the scenes are like, they don't do their work.
18:20
They're breaking the rules all of the time. And they're really more like, you know, talk a big game than actually back it up with the time and the effort that you often need to be good at your job.
18:33
That is incredibly helpful. Are there any early warning signs that you may be dealing with this kind of personality type, either in somebody that you're dating or that your brother's now dating or in a family member?
18:46
So, I mean, you spot one of these individuals, again, by looking for consistent patterns, right, of these traits over time and across contexts. But there are some early warning signs, right? So if you think about if you act in these ways consistently over time, if I just happen to pop into your life for like a minute, chances are I might see some of those patterns happening, right? It's not a perfect indicator, and I might see new information over time. But there are some things that you can look for.
19:18
So you can look for things like inappropriate emotional expressions, especially, you know, if someone has failed or if someone is hurting, they might look like they're actually enjoying that kind of thing.
19:34
They might be expressing really hostile language but smiling at the same time. So you get this kind of, like...
19:42
weird emotional presentation.
19:45
You might also get that superficial charm where it feels, you know, kind of really good in the moment, but if you examine what they actually said, there's not a whole lot of substance there.
19:57
They tend to be kind of combative, right? So they might be kind of pushing on your personal and professional boundaries. So even if you say, oh, I don't really talk about my family while I'm at work, they keep asking you about it.
20:11
And in addition to that, they might be kind of impulsive in their answers. They're answering very quickly, off the cuff. They interrupt you all the time, but they get really angry if you interrupt them because they tend to like to be kind of dominating or domineering in conversations.
20:29
Dr. Tenbrink, thank you for explaining that. I have another question I want to ask you, but I got to take a quick pause so we can allow our amazing sponsors to share a few words. And if you've been listening and you've ever said yourself, I don't know why I feel so off after talking to this person.
20:48
share this episode. Text it to your best friend, send it to your sister, drop it in the group chat at work. You don't need to explain anything. Trust me, when they hit play, they're going to get it. And don't go anywhere because we have so much more to dig into with Dr. Ten Brink when we return. Stay with me.
21:12
Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. Today, you and I are here with Dr. Leanne Tenbrink, and we're talking about what she calls poisonous people, manipulation and how to protect your peace without becoming cynical. All right, Dr. Tenbrink, let's keep going. My next question is, what is Machiavellianism? Did I say that right? Yes, you did.
21:32
That's a big word. It's so many syllables. So, Machiavellianism is a tendency to desire status and control. Like, they really want to be in charge. They want to be empowered. They want maybe fame or money, whatever that is. And they have a really amoral approach to it. to manipulation, meaning like they're very willing to kiss someone's butt to get ahead, but they're also just as willing to like spread rumors or tell lies to do that. And they're not particularly bothered. They're just like, what do I need to get to the top of the food chain here?
22:07
And they're willing to do that.
22:09
So somebody will step on your head or spread lies about you in order to get what they want?
22:14
Yeah, totally. Yes, we do have a visual. Okay, so this one, we got the chess pieces, right? So he's knocking you off the board. Yes. Right? So you're in the way, knocking you off the board. I think, you know, what this depicts is essentially this very strategic social style. So like where we talked about psychopathy, having that kind of impulsive nature, right? This is... different. This is like they're willing to like kind of plan things out. They're like, oh, Mel told me something kind of embarrassing.
22:45
I'm going to like put that in my back pocket and I'll bring that back up later whenever I kind of need to turn the screws on her or something like that.
22:53
Is this the kind of person where I think we've all had that experience where you...
22:58
Have this sense that somebody is turning it on and showing up when they need something. And the second that they have gotten what they needed and used you for a particular purpose, you're gone.
23:13
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I spoke to some people who especially at work would see this kind of behavior very strategic, pushing people out very subtly, managing up to the boss to try to get what they want. And these people tend to be very unsatisfied with their current position and like always gunning for something better. Yeah.
23:34
What does this look like in a family?
23:38
That's a great question. You know, usually we think about it at work, but in a family, you know, again, it would be just that desire for power, control over other people, and probably very willing to create these divisions maybe between the cousins and the uncles and the whatever, create divisions so that they come out on top.
24:01
Right.
24:02
So, yeah, it would be very similar, right? It's like we take our personalities with us wherever we go. So same kinds of strategies, but just playing out in a different context.
24:12
How do you spot a Machiavellian personality style at work? Like what are some of the behavior patterns that you should just pay attention to?
24:22
What's really going to be helpful here is talking to other people. About that person? Uh-huh.
24:29
Why?
24:29
Okay, so my dear postdoc advisor, Dr. Dacher Keltner. Yes, who's been on this podcast. We love him, the science of all. He's amazing. He did this study on gossip in a sorority, and essentially he asked everyone to fill out a measure of their Machiavellian traits. And then he also asked the girls who gets talked about in private conversations, who's well-liked, who has status, and who is respected.
25:00
And what he found is that the people who were gossiped about the most were people who were not well-liked, but they were well known. And they weren't well liked because they were highly Machiavellian and people perceived them as having status that they didn't really deserve. And so this is a situation in which it can be really helpful to maybe not take all rumors as face value, right? But like, you know, Pay attention because people are going to be talking about these individuals because they're so power hungry and because they are often like stepping over other people to get to where they want to be.
25:40
Yeah, it doesn't seem fair that they have the job they have or they have the attention of the boss or they have the title that they have because behind the scenes, we all know they either manipulated their way there or they didn't earn it. Well, that makes a lot of sense.
25:55
That makes a lot. You could see that playing out in a family where you have somebody that becomes the favorite and who is also always stirring up drama and always sucking the energy out of the room. And it doesn't seem fair. Right.
26:10
Yeah, and it can be hard to see, you know, because they use manipulation and they use it quite strategically, like it can be hard to see through at the start. I think that's what's hard about all of these personality traits is that they've got manipulation at the core of them, right?
26:23
How do you define manipulation?
26:25
Manipulation is just the willingness to use other people to your own ends. And so you are, you know, you're essentially like pulling the strings on other people, changing their perspective perhaps by telling lies or half-truths. Yeah.
26:41
So it sounds like, because I was about to say, aren't we all like using other people? But what you just said, though, is very important. You basically said you're willing to do whatever it takes to use people. Like, I suppose on some level, we all hope that our friends reciprocate. We all hope that by, you know, being loving and kind, you're going to get it back. But that's not a form of manipulation because I'm not deceiving you in some ways. Is that a fair way to think about it?
27:06
Because I often struggle with the fact that, you know, This is kind of probably a conversation for after we finish these four personality traits, but here's something I struggle with. Like, I know people are wildly stressed out and overwhelmed. Yeah. And there's a lot going on with the state of the world. And you never know what somebody is dealing with. And I also recognize that you typically are not dealing with the actual person in front of you. You're dealing with their childhood issues and their emotional state and whether or not they've eaten anything and their...
27:39
Tolerance for emotions and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
27:45
But and so I often try to give people the benefit of the doubt from a very safe distance. Yeah.
27:54
But.
27:55
We are living in a moment in time where the behavior of people in public, the behavior of people online, the acting out in families, it just seems like toxic behavior has skyrocketed.
28:13
And so I am just trying to disertain when you know that somebody's truly being manipulative versus somebody is having a super bad week. Yeah. Or they're just really at a point because of the stuff going on that you don't know about that they're emotionally flooded. Yeah.
28:35
Mm-hmm.
28:36
And they didn't intend to be this way, but they're walking all over. Do you know what I mean?
28:39
Totally. So you could be consistently callous and manipulative, right? Yeah. And therefore, you probably have high levels of these dark traits. But that doesn't mean that the rest of us are never callous and manipulative, right? And there's often situations that are more likely to bring that behavior out. And you're right that the world right now seems like it is pushing on a lot of those situational factors that increase the likelihood that we'll behave in these kinds of ways.
29:09
So, I mean, we can probably all think of a time when we were not our best selves, right? I feel bad about that, though. Yeah.
29:16
Yeah. And I apologize for it. And I then beat myself up over it. And what you're saying, I'm starting to disertain Dr. Tenbrink, is that a person with dark personality traits actually does not.
29:29
No, no. I mean, especially psychopathy, a lack of guilt and remorse is like core to what that personality is.
29:38
Is that the kind of person that also holds grudges?
29:42
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
29:44
Obviously, I'm thinking of somebody that I know.
29:48
Dr. Tenbrink, what's the number one sign you're being manipulated? So if this person wants something from you, you know, maybe it's your time, your money, your influence.
30:00
And if they seem to be a different person around you than everyone else, I think that's a big red flag, that you're not seeing who they are.
30:09
So early in romantic relationships, we'll hear about love bombing. And this person seemed like the perfect partner.
30:19
They were always texting me. They sent flowers. They want the same things that I want out of this relationship. All seems great, just the two of us. But look at how they treat the Uber driver, the barista, the hostess at the restaurant, especially when they don't think you're looking.
30:38
And if you start to see that consistent kind of cruel treatment of people— that are not you, I think that pattern is going to come for you eventually. Because the broader pattern is bad. It's a dark personality kind of pattern. Eventually, you're not going to be the exception anymore. You're going to become part of the rule.
31:02
And I think, yeah, seeing that kind of deviation when you are the deviation, that I think is a problem. Let's talk about narcissism.
31:11
So what is the clearest sign that you're dealing with somebody that has the dark personality of narcissism?
31:20
Okay, got another visual.
31:22
Narcissism.
31:23
All right.
31:25
So here we've got someone looking into a broken mirror, and you see kind of like the cracks in the facade here. And I think essentially what this is kind of pointing out is that what you see is not really what you get. Actually, this signifies to me kind of like a vulnerable type of narcissism where their ego is actually really easily shattered. Grandiose narcissism is kind of the opposite of that, where their ego like cannot be deflated, even though they're getting kind of feedback that it should be.
31:56
But at the core of both of those kinds of narcissism is entitlement.
32:01
Hmm.
32:02
and exploitation of other people in order to get that, what they think they deserve, which is more than most other people. And I think it's really helpful to try to identify those things early if you can, because those traits...
32:18
look really attractive early on, and they are the exact same traits that lead to problems a little bit later. So there's this one study that I love, Delroy Paulhaus at UBC. He did this study of groups of students, and they were working together over the course of a term, right? And week one, they all, you know, got together in their new groups, and they made these little, like, first impressions of people. And it turns out that the people who were the most narcissistic in those groups were originally seen as, like, really agreeable, really well-adjusted, and very competent.
32:55
Really? That was the first impression? Yeah. Agreeable?
33:00
Mm-hmm.
33:02
And then week seven, he asked them to do those same ratings again.
33:07
Those same people were seen as arrogant braggarts who were actually really hostile and who overestimated their abilities. Right. So it's kind of like there's this sheen at the start and it quickly wears off when you start to realize like the person they are putting forward is. is not the person they actually are. So there tends to be a lot of self-enhancement. Some early cues might be having lots of confidence, coming across very confident in your...
33:39
kind of verbal and nonverbal presentation, the way you carry yourself. They tend to be very concerned about their physical appearance, so they tend to be quite stylish and put a lot of effort into their appearance. And so it can be really hard to kind of pull apart what is...
33:56
the real person and what is the impression that they're trying to make. And sometimes it's like time that is going to reveal that.
34:05
You know, you said that there were kind of the two camps of the narcissistic personalities, one being grandiose, which I think we all have somebody in mind you can think of that represents that.
34:17
Yeah.
34:18
Whether it's in your family or at work or, you know, in public here in the United States.
34:23
But vulnerable. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think these can be sneakier and like you don't realize that's what you're dealing with. And so can you talk a little bit about how the vulnerable narcissistic personality shows up? Like what are we looking for? Because I think this one's really sneaky.
34:45
Yeah. So with respect to vulnerable narcissism, like the entitlement and the willingness to exploit other people is still involved, just like for grandiose narcissism. But they tend to have a real fragility to their ego. Like they're almost looking for, you know, your admiration to prop up something that's like not there.
35:09
And they tend to be very defensive and somewhat avoidant. And I think learning a little bit about what triggers these two different kind of types of narcissists is actually pretty revealing. So the grandiose type tends to get very angry when there's like a failure because they are supposed to be incredible and amazing and they're going to be pissed whenever they don't get that job. They don't get the promotion. They don't get... you know, the rays at work. Whereas for a vulnerable narcissist, because they're kind of getting that ego boost from other people, it's rejection that really upsets them.
35:48
And so if, you know, they get broken up with or, you know, someone just doesn't treat them very nicely, you know, they tend to really react strongly to that kind of thing.
35:59
How can this show up in a family, especially in the vulnerable narcissist? Like, is this the person that flies off the handle because you can't make it home this weekend? Is this the person that's just constantly giving you the guilt trip if you're not doing everything you wanted them to do because meeting expectations? If you don't do it, it's the rejection piece. Like, how does this show up in a family? Yeah.
36:24
Yeah, so, I mean, they're going to have those same traits, right? So the entitlement, whatever they want the family to do. After everything I've done for you. Yes, exactly. Very willing to manipulate people. So using guilt trip, whatever it would be that would, like, work to kind of push you around. Right.
36:44
And in addition to that, it's, like, rejection. So, yeah, if you don't come to the birthday party, if you don't make it to the retirement party or whatever, you don't come home for Christmas, that is going to really, you know, set someone with vulnerable narcissism off, whereas someone who's more grandiose narcissism, like, it's kind of dirt off their shoulder, right? So, like, they're them, they're big, whatever. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
37:09
Gotcha. Okay. That's so interesting. And I want you to hold that thought, Dr. Tenbrink, because we're going to take a quick break so our sponsors can have a moment to share a few words. And don't go anywhere. We're going to be right back.
37:31
Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. Today, you and I are here with Dr. Leanne Tenbrink. We're talking about dark personalities and how to spot them in real life and exactly what to do and not do to protect yourself. All right, Dr. Tenbrink, let's just jump right back in. Here's the next thing I wanted to ask you. What about the fourth dark personality, which is sadism? What is sadism?
37:54
Sadism is essentially having an appetite for cruelty.
37:57
Ooh, yeah.
37:59
Oh.
37:59
Yeah. Oh, I don't. Oh, really? Yeah. So it's centered around finding enjoyment in the pain of other people. Enjoyment? Mm-hmm.
38:08
Oh.
38:09
Like, oh, God.
38:10
That's awful. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. So we've got a depiction of this one, too. Oh. Let's see. Let's see.
38:18
So here we've got someone who is, you know, taking some control over the situation. I might actually like add like little knives or something. Oh, my gosh.
38:28
So this is a visual that Dr. Tenbrink is holding. If you're listening, there's a person that's big above and then a little person that's almost like on puppet strings being manipulated. But you're saying they take pleasure in hurting other people. And so if you were to add anything, you would literally stab the person that's at the end of the. Oh, That's terrible.
38:47
They get enjoyment out of paint. And what's so interesting about... your reaction is like, yeah, there are those like very extreme versions of this. Like when I was an undergrad, I was coding these descriptions of sexual homicides and I was coding them for evidence of gratuitous violence and sadistic violence.
39:08
And those are obviously these like very extreme examples, right? But there's more like everyday versions. So things like enjoying really violent sports, right?
39:19
Maybe, you know, enjoying, you know, you're scrolling through Instagram or something and you see a video of a kid getting hit with a soccer ball and you find that funny. Like little kind of everyday sadism is what it's called. And I think we think of these people as like... you know, monsters, right? But we can probably all think of a time when we felt something sort of adjacent. So let me try this on you. So imagine that you are thinking about someone really powerful, maybe a politician, a CEO of some company that you dislike, and they are walking across the stage to give a speech and they trip and they fall.
39:54
Like, how do you react?
39:57
You know, I guess I might be like, you deserve that.
40:03
Yeah, there might be like a little smirk might come on your face just for a second. You know why?
40:07
And you know what I would call it? Karma. She just came for you because you didn't deserve that, you know, title. And so I can see what you mean by like that's an example of like a micro sadism.
40:19
So this is, the Germans have a great word for this, it's schadenfreude. And it is taking joy in the misfortune. of someone else. And often we experience this when it's someone who's in like a position of power and they kind of fall or falter or something like that. And so that's, yeah, kind of like an everyday sadism kind of experience.
40:41
Well, let me tease that out a little bit more. Because I was very intrigued when you said a micro everyday form of sadism is watching very violent sports.
40:49
Mm-hmm.
40:50
Or maybe even watching extremely violent horror movies.
40:55
And really seeing that as a form of entertainment that you like. And when I think about the example of somebody that you don't like... tripping and you taking a small amount of like there's a part of me that feels like it's justice you know what I'm saying for somebody who doesn't deserve the power that they have how do you know the difference between something that might feel like they're getting what's due versus taking pleasure in seeing someone else suffer if that makes sense or is it is the same thing and I'm just putting a better label on it
41:32
I think what it would be is just kind of like different places on that spectrum. Got it. Right. So like someone who scores really high on sadism might be like, oh, yeah, I love, you know, violent sports. I love violent video games because I enjoy seeing, you know, the heads blow off the characters or whatever. And I also love trolling people online because it gives me kind of a thrill to just like... Bring people down. Yeah, exactly. And so they might also feel schadenfreude, right? But they would be like, yes, yes, yes to like all of these different items that we present to them.
42:04
And you would be like, yeah, a little bit on one item, right? So you would be pretty low on that spectrum and they would be pretty high.
42:10
So when there's a pile on online and people are just tearing somebody down, those are examples of microsatism?
42:18
Yeah, so there's great research showing that people who score higher in sadism also tend to be more likely to engage in online trolling.
42:28
And it's actually like a small proportion of the internet. It feels like a lot of the internet, right? But it's actually a pretty small proportion of people.
42:36
Why should microsadism somebody in your life that is really into violent sports or loves seeing heads blown off on video games, should that concern you?
42:49
I think as with all of these things, I kind of file them away and I'm like...
42:55
I'm going to hold on to that red flag and I'm going to think about how I need to interact with you and whether this personality trait is going to get in the way of that. If you've got like, I don't know, a brother or a cousin who's like, I love UFC.
43:11
I mean, this is not necessarily like a throw-em-away kind of situation, right? It's like he might score relatively low on all of the other aspects of sadism and not a problem whatsoever. It might be part of a personality pattern that is a much bigger problem. And so you're looking for evidence of this like over time and across context. It's not just in sports, right? It's not just in conversations with you. It's also at work. It's also... you know, at home with his own family.
43:42
So, Dr. Tenbrink, what are the signs that someone is being terrible just temporarily versus they truly have dark personality traits?
43:59
So if you're just coming into the situation at that moment, it's going to be very difficult to discern. What you really need is time. Okay. Because someone who has high levels of these dark traits are that way consistently across time and context. Whereas someone who, you know, is stressed, is tired, is hungry, etc., and they do something callous, they do something cruel— That is a deviation from their normal pattern of behavior.
44:30
So having like a bigger scope of information about this person is going to help you to see whether that's like that tracks or more like, oh, that was a weird thing that they just did.
44:41
You know, Dr. Tenbrink, you say that within 10 seconds, even of meeting somebody, you can spot a dark personality trait. What are you looking for?
44:50
Okay, so a bit of a good news, bad news situation here is that good news, people with very little training can detect with some kernel of truth the extent to which someone has psychopathic personality traits or not, just like five seconds. Five seconds? Five seconds of their behavior.
45:10
It's not perfect, and it might need to be updated over time. But let's talk about this research. So this is work done by Scott Lillenfeld and his colleagues. And he had videos of men who were incarcerated. They were actually doing a semi-structured interview with a psychologist that was part of a psychopathy assessment.
45:31
And so he had trained psychologists who were doing this long interview and like criminal case review to try to assess these personality traits. And then he took five seconds or like 10-second clips of this interview and showed them to people who just had, you know, a little definition of what psychopathy was, kind of like we did earlier in this episode.
45:52
And just for a refresher, psychopathy— is when you are manipulative and callous, but you also are a rule breaker and you're impulsive. Is that right? Exactly. Okay, got you.
46:08
So gave completely untrained people that little definition that you just gave.
46:13
And five seconds of their behavior and said, you know, where do you think they fall on this kind of spectrum of psychopathy? And the ratings that these untrained people gave were reasonably correlated with the trained psychologists who had the benefit of, like, a much longer interview and this criminal case file review.
46:34
So we were like— what are they looking at, right? So my colleagues and I, we reached out to Scott and we're like, can we get these videos? We want to code. We want to know what people are looking at. And what we found was that The people with high levels of psychopathy were saying really hostile things and smiling broadly. We call it a Duchenne smile when you get those little crinkles around your eyes that go along with the upturned lips.
47:04
All I heard was douche, and I'm like, okay, yeah. It sounds like somebody would smile as they're saying something really cruel. Duchenne.
47:11
Yeah, exactly. So we're getting this, like, extreme kind of discordance between the things they're saying and the way that they're expressing it. And people kind of naturally were like, that's weird. I think that's associated with psychopathy. And that was a reasonably useful cue in this case. There are other things that you can look forward to. So high psychopathy folks are more likely to interrupt you in conversation but refuse to be interrupted themselves. They ignore those personal and professional boundaries.
47:43
They might be kind of like oddly calm. So like they're not showing guilt or shame whenever you would expect that to be the case, which they have an air of moral superiority about them. They might be unusually angry. And they might get frustrated when they can't bait you into an argument, like if you don't take the bait. Like they're looking for that hostility. And if you don't give it to them, they can get frustrated.
48:10
None of these are a Pinocchio's nose, right? There's no one behavior that's always going to be like, all people with high levels of psychopathy do this all of the time.
48:20
But if you start seeing this pattern unfolding across multiple interactions, that's when you can be increasingly confident that this personality trait is present.
48:34
Why are people with dark personality traits so often in leadership and powerful roles?
48:41
This is a great question, which I've spent many, many a moon thinking about. There's, I think, a whole bunch of different reasons. The first one I think we overlook, which is just that they want it.
48:53
When we study narcissism, often we have people do self-report, so they're just reporting on their own personality. One of those items is, I am a born leader. And you're like, how much do you agree with that statement? Yeah.
49:07
If you're like, yeah, I am a born leader, then you're probably also gunning for that promotion at work. Like you're going to be more likely to put yourself forward for a high status position. So that's one thing.
49:20
Another is that we tend to be really blinded by their confidence. Like we confuse confidence with competence.
49:28
And so when people, you know, come across with like a lot of bravado, they say they can and they have done all of these incredible things and they seem very self-assured.
49:38
We believe it.
49:40
And whenever you're talking about people who tend to be pumping themselves up and are willing to lie in order to get what they want, like that can be quite misleading.
49:51
What is gaslighting, Dr. Tenbrink? And what is not gaslighting?
49:59
Yeah, so I think people throw around like, are you gaslighting me? Like even when there's like a little bit of confusion or like you interpreted a situation a little bit differently than I did.
50:10
Or, you know, something doesn't make sense to them. And there's like a kernel of truth in the way that we're using that, but it's certainly overused. It's not just... you know, having a different perspective on things. It's not just a disagreement.
50:23
It is a type of psychological and emotional abuse that involves someone attempting to make another person feel crazy by creating this kind of like surreal environment around them. So it's not just like isolating or intimidating or minimizing someone is trying to make them like not trust their own mind, their own, their memories, their reactions, their like experience of the world.
50:55
And our brains are essentially like prediction machines.
50:58
And so whenever we get feedback from another person that like all the predictions that you are making are wrong, it can be really destabilizing. And I think what's most concerning about it is when you start to feel like, I can't trust my own mind's interpretation of events, so I need your interpretation. And that can create this real sense of dependence on another person and isolation from other people.
51:31
I mean, compared to other people, types of abuse. We actually have relatively little research on gaslighting, but we do know that people with high levels of dark personality traits endorse this kind of behavior in romantic relationships people were asked what do you think about you know telling someone that you know that didn't actually happen that way or their reactions are completely outsized or trying to make them doubt their experience of the world and people with higher levels of all the dark personality traits that we talked about today were like That seems fine.
52:07
So that can be, you know, incredibly destabilizing and difficult to get out of.
52:15
Can a person with a dark personality change?
52:18
So personalities can change.
52:22
They tend to change very little over time, especially if people are not committed to that kind of change. And people with dark personalities tend not to be very concerned about changing.
52:32
Well, if you're callous, manipulative, and hostile, then why would you change?
52:38
Exactly.
52:39
They see it as more of a—this is a you problem, not a me problem, right? So they tend not to have a whole lot of commitment to therapy. Now, the research that we do have, say, on psychopathy in particular, suggests that if people will stay in therapy for, like, multiple sessions— they can reduce—it's almost like a harm reduction in their behavior. So most of this research is with incarcerated men.
53:08
And the outcome that we're looking at is recidivism, so likelihood that they will commit another offense when they get released. And the guys who stick with treatment longer are less likely to engage in recidivism and come back to prison. So that's amazing. That's an improvement. They— do not become dramatically different people. Like, they don't become, you know, the most kind and honest person. We're not looking at a personality 180 here, but you can get reduction in some of perhaps more problematic behaviors.
53:38
Well, the reason why I ask you that is because I remember Dr. Ramani Diversola, who specializes in narcissistic personality disorders, once said something to me that changed the way that I forever...
53:53
deal with a person in my life who clearly has all the traits and what she basically said is the single thing that is creating so much pain and frustration when you're dealing with somebody once you recognize these dark traits is your belief and hope that the other person will change And holding out hope for a fantasy of what might happen if you twist yourself in knots or you stay for 10 more years or you just lower your voice or you bake more cupcakes or have more sex or show up at Christmas, that that hope for the fantasy keeps you from recognizing the reality of what you're dealing with.
54:35
Yeah.
54:36
Do you have any thoughts on sort of that perspective?
54:39
I think she's totally right, is that my commitment to someone else changing— Really doesn't have anything to do with their commitment or ability to change. And so someone's personality is, as we've been talking about, their consistent way of thinking, feeling, and behaving. Not how you feel about it. That's not part of the definition. So like your reaction to their personality. Or wish. Yeah, or wish. Or dream. It's not part of it. It's not relevant.
55:10
But it hurts whenever you are like, I'm doing all of the things that I can possibly do to change you. I think there are ways that we can approach interactions with people with dark personalities to make them a little smoother. To, like, make... It just makes it like less likely that this interaction is going to ruin my whole day. It's not going to change their personality, but it's going to just like, okay, we can reduce the stress like day-to-day interaction, interaction.
55:37
Okay. So let's take an example. So as you've been listening to Dr. Ten Brink, I bet you're imagining somebody. that you have to deal with, whether they're in your family or there's somebody that you see at work or they're in your friend group. Maybe it's a neighbor who is particularly difficult and hostile to deal with, or maybe it's your ex. Like a lot of people have situations with exes, especially when there's custody issues that have a lot of dark personality stuff coming up.
56:11
So when you recognize that you're dealing with somebody with these traits and you also recognize the truth that you have no control over them changing, but when you recognize a situation, you could maybe change how you approach a situation to reduce its impact on you.
56:30
Yeah. Yeah.
56:31
I would love for you to speak directly to the person who's listening because you have taught us so much today and really helped us to see both that this is on a continuum, that there's only certain things you can control, which is how you're going to show up, and that there are things to do here, one of them not being that the other person's changing.
56:56
If the person listening takes just one action, After hearing everything that you've taught us, what do you think the most important thing to do after listening to this is?
57:07
I think it's to slow down because personality is a pattern. We keep talking about this over and over again. And it's a pattern that as a spouse or as a friend or a coworker, you don't have a whole lot of ability to change, right? So... Take some time to get to know someone before you commit in whatever ways you need to commit to that relationship. I think we're all looking for like this magic bullet, this like one behavior I can see and you can be like, you're in and you're out, right? But that's kind of like trying to see an entire puzzle when you're just holding one piece in your hand.
57:40
And so... I think in addition to slowing down, don't do it alone. Like, we know that we are better at detecting lies, at discerning people's personalities, and at managing relationships when we do it with other people that we trust and we know. And maintaining that supportive social network is just so important. Like, you're going to need them to identify the bad apple. You're They're going to help you escape if you decide to leave and they're going to help you muddle through it if you decide to stay.
58:13
And so like staying connected to other people, I think, is so important.
58:18
Dr. Ten Brink, what are your parting words?
58:20
So I think it's important to end this conversation by like putting it into context. Right. So.
58:25
About 1% of the general population would meet the clinical criteria for psychopathy. About 10% of the population, on average, would agree with the self-report statements that we use to measure dark personality traits. And that sounds like a lot, Mel. It does.
58:43
But it's so important to flip that statistic around. That means nine out of 10 people are not callous and manipulative and impulsive and antisocial. They are honest and they are kind and they are helpful. And if you take the time to get to know people, I bet you'll be surprised at how many good people there are out there. There's such a lack of trust in society right now. And I think some of it is really misplaced. So I hope people don't let this malevolent few that can have such a huge negative impact on our lives keep us from enjoying a life with all the benevolent, amazing people out there.
59:22
Oh, Dr. Tenbrink, I'm so happy you ended there because you're right. After you hear all this, you start to just feel like you're in a dark cave surrounded by dark personalities.
59:31
It can be a bummer.
59:32
The bigger zoom out is that it's probably one person.
59:36
Mm-hmm.
59:37
It's probably one person that has been causing the massive amount of stress in your life.
59:44
Yeah.
59:44
And I really hope that as you've been listening, you take to heart what Dr. Tenbrink has taught us and understand that when you spot these traits— okay, you now recognize what you're dealing with. And you got to assume this person's not changing. And if you're going to choose to continue to be around them, you can be smarter about how you're showing up and you can think about what motivates a dark personality, right? Yeah.
60:15
And just get very strategic about the way you deal with this person.
60:20
Yeah, it can feel like, you know, it's a dark personality's world and we're just living in it. But if we can learn how to identify those people and like either avoid or approach those interactions a little more strategically, it means that we can dramatically reduce the amount of stress and pain that we feel throughout our lives by just learning how to deal with like one person a little bit more effectively.
60:43
Well, we all have that one person that's causing 90% of the stress. So I appreciate that you walked us through all of this in depth and really explained it so we can see what's just normal stress and immaturity and what's really something that you need to protect yourself from. So Dr. Ten Brink, thank you, thank you, thank you.
61:04
Thank you, Mel.
61:05
And thank you. Thank you for making the time to listen to this. And one more thing, in case no one else tells you today, as your friend, I wanted to tell you that I love you and I believe in you. And I believe in your ability to create a better life. And I think one of the things that helps you create a better life is recognizing the truth of what and who you're dealing with, taking a step back. Remember, Dr. Ten Brink said, pause. assess, and then be strategic about how you move forward. Because when you start being more strategic about how you relate to other people, I promise you, your life is going to get a whole lot better.
61:41
So go do it. Alrighty. I will see you in the very next episode. I'll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play.
61:51
Okay.
61:53
Dr. Ten Brink, how do you, how do you support someone? Okay. And they're starting to change for the worst. Wait, how do you, and you don't even, and they don't even. And thank you. Thank you for making the time to listen to this. And in case, is that how we, Jesus Christ, I'm starting to lose it where my hand, okay. So read the last line again, Tracy.
62:12
I'm sorry, everybody. And if you're going to choose to be around them, you can be smarter about how you're showing up and you can think about what motivates a dark personality.
62:22
And I personally love knowing that we can both be more strategic given that there are dark personalities out there.
62:31
Well, okay, wait, what?
62:34
And thank you for watching all the way to the end here on YouTube. And if you're thinking, okay, what should I watch next? You are going to love this video. Oh my God. Thank you. Now look, there are always, okay.
62:47
Okay, gotcha, you're right.
62:50
Gotcha. Now, Dr. Ten Brink has fascinating research about how to spot a dark personality trait.
63:00
Dr. Ten Brink also has fascinating research about how to spot a dark personality type in less than 10 seconds. Okay, sorry. Okay.
63:13
Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend, I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.
63:48
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